Our CSAT has given me some homework for next week, and I would like to request your help. We had a good and very productive – but highly emotional – session with her yesterday. In advance of our next session, I am supposed to create a list of needs that I consider to be baseline needs from Handsome in order for me to stay in our marriage.
Here is what I have so far, ranging from the subjective to the more quantifiable/ provable:
- truth (Stop lying!)
- fidelity/ loyalty
- respect
- integrity
- empathy/ compassion
- exclusive love
- intimacy (emotional and physical)
- healthy selflessness (demonstrate that you can be self-sacrificing – not a martyr – for the benefit of others without the expectation of something in return)
- give me your first and your best
- sobriety (sexual/ alcohol)
- full disclosure
- financial and other transparency
- complete and abide by an updated circle chart
- post-nuptial agreement
- annual STD testing
- ongoing weekly attendance at individual therapy
- ongoing weekly attendance at SA meetings
- participation in group therapy if available
- ongoing weekly CSAT appointments
- stop engaging in other behavior that’s harmful to the marriage (e.g. deflection, minimizing, workaholism)
- dedicated time to talk about the marriage/ check-in
- dedicated quality time (i) as a couple and (ii) with family
This is where you come in, dear readers. I’ve pondered this list till I’m bleary-eyed. What am I missing? No matter where you are on your journey, and no matter whether your spouse cheated once or is an addict, please let me know in the comments what you think I’m missing – even if it might be aspirational. What would you ask for? Similarly, if there is something on the list you think shouldn’t be there, let me know that as well.
I should note that Handsome is doing a lot of this already. The list of what he isn’t doing is fairly small. There are, however, significant things on that list.
As always, I look forward to and appreciate your thoughts.
Your list already has more than I’d ever think of on my own. I think it covers everything.
Thanks Jack! Let’s just say that I’ve pondered this for a long time before the CSAT ever brought it up, so I was somewhat prepared. 🙂
For me the person has to be contrite. I pick this word carefully because it means feeling or expressing remorse at the fact that one has done wrong. For me this was key. It’s not being sorry, it’s something more. I hope that helps. Moisy
I love that word! And yes, it is more than just being sorry (which, like many of us, I’ve heard so often that it has lost meaning).
Very helpful!
xo
I also love the word contrite
Contrition was probably not felt by Roger. He just wanted it all to go away. When he chose it. I also would have loved for it to all go away! But not possible. Contrition is ongoing. Not a once off. Rog seemed to think there was an end to it all. It never ends. You just learn better ways to live and love with it woven into your story as neatly as possible.
I love your list, blackacre. Very well considered
At Handsome’s intensive they asked the participants “If you could make any wish about yourself and have it granted today, what would that wish be?” Handsome wrote down that he wished for a Mulligan (a do-over) with me. I know he really does wish for that, because it would wash all of this mess away, but that just doesn’t happen in reality. He is going to need to be contrite, and many other things, moving forward. Forever. It doesn’t ever end, as much as they might wish it does.
xo
The one and only thing I think that addiction has over selfish cheating assholery is the formal recognition of permanence. Always working on it. Rog just wanted it to have never happened. Or rather, that I never knew. Because he loathed being known as the guy with the huge character flaw of serial cheat. He argued his other women did not count. Only Leanne. This is the reason he sought a do over. A fresh start with a woman he had not shattered. Any other woman. But me.
That’s really insightful, but yes, the concept of permanence and constant daily effort to be a better person and live a better life is different. I’m sure some garden variety cheaters find their way to that destination but the focus is more on “moving beyond” or reaching a turning point as opposed to life-long effort.
xo
That is so true, contrition is ongoing. We know others who have been in the same situation and the man just wants it all to go away. They don’t want to talk about it, they just want to forget it. Rich learnt over time that to forget it is the worse thing you can do; because something like that is a thing that carves more definition into your character and your relationship. If you don’t appreciate that you will always learn from it then how do things improve/ get better. We still learn from it today, in fact in my other blog we have used the strength we have got from it to get through a difficult time that we are having in France. Moisy x
Your list looks pretty complete to me. You are dealing with a sex addict and have more issues to address than my husband’s infidelity so I am unable to think of anything more to add to your list. I’m glad to hear he’s doing most of it and hopefully will do ALL of what you need from him. xoxo Dolly
Thanks Dolly. He is doing (or is trying to do) most of the list. Sometimes he is not successful, but I do think he tries. Usually. There are other things on the list that he’d rather avoid, and I believe those are where we need to focus as a couple while continuing the good things he already has going on.
xoxo
I notice my husband, now at close to 2 1/2 years past d-day, still gets uncomfortable at times when something will come up. It took us a while to overcome some of the ‘excuses/hurdles’ such as contact disclosure. When I see discomfort, I’m pretty sure it’s from embarrassment or disappointment in himself. But we’ve resolved these hurdles with time… xoxo Dolly
I appreciate that. While we are not complete newbies, we are “only” just past the one year anniversary of our first DDay. It took him a long time to create the mess and it will take a long time to dig out from underneath it. I do know that some of these things will improve with time if he keeps working on them. Progress, not perfection as they say.
This is just my opinion, but I would not include the updated circle chart as something I need to feel safe and stay in the marriage. I see that as a tool that the SA develops, with help from a sponsor or CSAT, to stay sober. The SA needs to own that. When they do, it can be a powerful tool that leads to insight and self-honesty. Focus on what you need to feel safe. ❤️❤️❤️
I value your opinion, Maggie. 🙂 In our case, his circle chart is in the same format as what an addict would create with their sponsor in SAA, but since it’s not utilized in SA (the group Handsome attends) for us it is more of a mutually agreed on listing of boundaries (inner circle), triggers (middle circle), and healthy activities to help avoid the inner and middle circles (outer circle). We essentially stole SAA’s concept and made it our own. It has involved me since it was first created and later refined with Dr. M, and it is something our CSAT is focusing on updating with both of us. Handsome has to take ownership of it and follow it, but Dr. M and the CSAT also come at it from the perspective that my safety in the relationship is so intertwined with those boundaries that my input must be considered as well. That’s particularly true of the development of the inner circle (relationship deal breakers). It isn’t helpful for him to think that something is “only” an inner circle item if, for me, I would be unable to stay in the relationship if he did it. There has been some movement of things between the inner and middle circles as it has been refined and clarified over the last year, but the boundaries are crystal clear.
❤️
Patience xo
Yes!!!!! Can’t believe I forgot that. 🤦🏼♀️
This is why I asked!
❤️
The mulligan doesn’t fly with me. He’s getting his mulligan. If he went back in time, without enlightenment or knowledge of the future, he would likely make the same choices and same mistakes. I have played golf since I was 14, so I’m very familiar with the term. Just because I get to take another shot, doesn’t mean I will play the hole any better.
After 5 years of this, and BE has the same circle story that Handsome does, borrowing from SAA when he exclusively attends SA, Omar’s opinions and guidance, etc…. I would say that the one thing I really still want is for him to think of me when making decisions. Decisions about everything. Think about whether how he is behaving or the decisions he makes will affect me, negatively or positively. Just stop and think. The decisions BE made from childhood to now have been selfish ones. As a child, trying to protect himself emotionally, physically, I get it. It was for survival and he created horrible habits. But, but… as an adult, with me and our children, his selfish decisions hurt innocent people. He effectively turned around and hurt people. True change for me shows when he deliberately and not so deliberately thinks about others before himself. That’s what I still need from BE. It still hurts that my instinct is to not hurt people while his instinct is to protect himself from people who aren’t hurting him, and often includes lying. This still breaks my heart.
This is a long journey. Ask for what you need, but be prepared to be really really patient. Some days I feel completely broken by this. Most days I feel like the strong, independent, loving, nurturing woman I am.
xo
I love this, so much.
As well as the childhood stuff, I think society enculturates men to be inherently selfish. “Taking charge.” And the little women scurry around making it all happen for everyone else. It sucks. So, so much more when you are betrayed. 😙
You have more artfully articulated what I was trying to accomplish with my “healthy selflessness” point. Think about others before yourself. Act for the benefit of others without the expectation that it will benefit you. And yes, first and foremost when I say “others” I mean me and our children.
You are completely correct about the mulligan. I understand what he intended (what he was really wishing for) but the concept of a do-over strikes me as incredibly naive for the very reasons you suggested. Absent all of the help and intervention he has had, he’d almost certainly do the same damn things again. When he showed that to me I think he thought it was sweet. I thought it was quite sad and surprisingly out of touch.
I am going to ask for what I need and want, but I do know that there will be no instant or short-term gratification. He’s done good work on himself in the last year. Great work, even, in some areas. I see that. The problem is that he thinks that equates to work on our marriage and that is not the case. In fact, with all of the focus and spotlight on him, our marriage has withered in the shade. I’ve been patient. I’m happy for the progress he has made, but it’s now time to turn to the life support that our marriage needs and for him to bring the lessons he has learned about himself to that effort.
❤️
Is there a list of what he is willing to do? I’m curious if I asked him, “Handsome, without BA telling you, what do you think she wants from you?”
What he would say?
My only other observations are:
1. Are you going to police some of these things? Do you want too? For example, does he need to have chit’s signed when he goes to a meeting and turn them into you? How will these things be recorded? For how long?
2. Some I get regular STD checks, chemical and sexual sobriety (I assume you will have drig testing too), and post-nup. While others read like you want your husband to be a different person. Where is the line between holding him accountable for his behavior and trying to change him into what you need and want him to be?
3. If you are going to give him this list how often and when does it get renegotiated?
4. And lastly, in what ways are you accountable? For example, the post-nup. I assume if he cheats he has to pay XYZ and do ABC. What if he does everything you asked and you still leave? Is he still responsible? What if you cheat? What if he decides to divorce you?
I think Handsome would focus on truth and integrity and, unless he was having an emotional day, he would likely leave things like empathy, patience, and compassion off the list. He is getting better at those things but they do not occur to him naturally. He would be unlikely to list any of the tangible tasks. It’s an interesting question though, and I think I’ll ask him. We’ll see what he comes back with.
I’ll try to address your other points in order:
1. Handsome always announces when he’s going to a meeting or to therapy. We often have to schedule sitters/ activities around those things, so they are not a secret. No recording, chits, or policing necessary. Those are actually things he is doing and needs to keep doing.
2. I understand your point. We may see this differently based on our vantage points. Looking at the list I truly believed with all my heart that I was receiving just about everything at the top of that list from Handsome pre-DDay #1. I thought that he did conduct himself with truth, fidelity, loyalty, compassion, etc. I believed that was the man I married. It may have been. He says he was that guy once. Clearly though, most of those things went out the window when he started all of the shitheadfuckery (that’s your term, right?) during our marriage. He either needs to find those things within himself again or our relationship is indeed doomed. And things like empathy, patience, and selflessness that I thought existed, but may in reality have been in short supply pre-DDay, are all things that his addiction work focuses on developing in him.
3. I believe we are going to go over the list at our CSAT appointment next week. I think she has realized that I am truly at my breaking point. She wants to be clear – and have Handsome be clear – on what I need to hang on. I’m sure that, like his circle plan, it will be revisited every few months. I will say that I don’t believe in continually moving the bar higher. I will not be adding things to the baseline list. That would be unfair of me.
4. The post-nup is set up so that if he cheats or engages in some of his more torrid acting out behavior, or if I do the same, it is triggered and benefits the other party. If I just choose to walk away because I reach my breaking point, it doesn’t come into play. Same for him.
I am mindful that he could just tap out and walk away. That’s actually his pattern. Our CSAT has tried to tell me how fortunate I am that he’s breaking his pattern – to which I only somewhat sarcastically think to myself “yay, my unrecovered sex addict spouse is still here… lucky, lucky me!” I do know that I need to be accountable for my conduct. I strive for that. I have one parent who was less than accountable and I have tried to live my life doing the opposite. There will come a point well down the road where our work with the CSAT shifts to something that looks more like conventional marriage counseling and I’m sure mutual accountability will be a major focus. We are far from that at the moment. We’re still trying to stop the bleeding from his acting out.
I’m rooting for you and him, and for you both.
I really apprecaite Alain de Bottom:
“In the oasis complex, the thirsty man images he sees water, palm trees, and shade not because he has evidence for the belief, but because he has a need for it. Desperate needs bring about a hallucination of their solution: thirst hallucinates water, the need for love hallucinates a prince or princess. The oasis complex is never a complete delusion: the man in the desert does see something on the horizon. It is just that the palms have withered, the well is dry, and the place is infected with locusts.”
—-
“But calm is precisely what is absent from love’s classroom. There is simply too much on the line. The “student” isn’t merely a passing responsibility; he or she is a lifelong commitment. Failure will ruin existence. No wonder we may be prone to lose control and deliver cack-handed, hasty speeches which bear no faith in the legitimacy or even the nobility of the act of imparting advice. And no wonder, too, if we end up achieving the very opposite of our goals, because increasing levels of humiliation, anger, and threat have seldom hastened anyone’s development. Few of us ever grow more reasonable or more insightful about our own characters for having had our self-esteem taken down a notch, our pride wounded, and our ego subjected to a succession of pointed insults. We simply grow defensive and brittle in the face of suggestions which sound like mean-minded and senseless assaults on our nature rather than caring attempts to address troublesome aspects of our personality.
—
https://onbeing.org/programs/alain-de-botton-the-true-hard-work-of-love-and-relationships-aug2018/
Please. I’m curious what he says. I put together a list mentally thinking on what someone in my xp’s situation might expect. I’ll be curious how his list compares to mine.
Shitheadery. Yes, my term. I think you added the fuckery.
I am always amazing at you and your honesty. Thank you.
Didn’t you mention on one of your posts that Handsome has ADHD, or am I confusing him with someone else? Anyway, if he does, I can say this: I have ADHD and by the time I got about eight things into this list my brain started a downward spiral. I would pare it down. The majority of these items are covered under “respect” and “empathy” because if he respects you he’ll get STD tested. If he respects you and has empathy for you he’ll offer full disclosure, etc.
Fair point, indeed. (I believe Handsome has ADHD…. based on a host of symptoms he shares with my ADHD eldest child… but he has not been formally diagnosed.) I get what you’re saying, but I’m not sure that Handsome can draw good connections between the emotional things he needs to bring to the table and the objective actions that evidence his grasp of those things. It’s sad, for sure, but his therapist and our CSAT say it’s really normal for sex addicts. Maybe the tasks get presented as examples of how he can show the emotions?? Otherwise I’m not sure what the best way is to accomplish that.
I think that would work. Under “empathy” list items as examples. And under “respect” list other items as examples.
Periodic polygraph.
Fair suggestion Connie. I’ve written a few earlier posts about the polygraph experience that Handsome and I had with a highly experienced examiner. They are only as good as the drafting of the statements that are the subject of the test. I thought ours were pretty thorough. They weren’t thorough enough as I found out 8 months later.
I know that polygraphs can be a useful tool – and ours was not completely without benefit – but for us, I’m done putting my eggs (and money) in that basket. That said, I’ve never told my husband that so he probably assumes there are more in his future. Maybe that’s for the best.