This is the fourth post in my week of soul cleansing. You can find the first three posts here, here, and here.
There really is no easy way to diplomatically address this, so I’m just going to dive right in. There are girls/ women who date broken and damaged men because they either like the drama involved in trying to get them to change, or they enjoy the project of trying to spiff them up, or they think it’s the best they can hope for in a relationship. That has never been me. With one particular exception (it was a brief, 6 month bad-boy phase right after college) I’ve dated guys who were squared away. I’ve never liked drama. I dated men who seemed to have confidence and were secure in who they were and what they wanted out of life. Some of them were selfish assholes, to be sure, but they were far from secretive or apologetic about their lives or their goals and dreams.
I had one long-term (10 year) relationship prior to Handsome and he was not a project in any way, shape, or form. Neither he, nor any of the men I dated, were into porn or escorts or massage parlors. They openly mocked the men who utilized such services. They referred to the women involved as dirty, skanky, trashy and a host of less printable names. Mind you, none of these guys were chaste. Every one of them was completely into sex, sometimes overwhelmingly so, with their own unique takes on kink. Every single one of them was reasonably adventurous, but they wanted that adventure with someone “clean.” That matched well with my sexual background and experience.
I came into my relationship with Handsome fully believing that men who paid for sex or sat in their basements self-pleasuring to porn were losers. Who pays for sex when you just go out and find someone you like and get it on?
If guys who watch porn and pay for sex are losers, what is my husband?
🙄
I struggle with this. Handsome has been a sex addict for decades… long before he met me. His pattern is to start a new relationship sober, and then after several years fall back into a phase of acting out until he walks away from the relationship (he tries to leave first so he isn’t dumped). Our CSAT calls this the “rinse and repeat” cycle. If I knew the truth about Handsome, I never would have dated him. I certainly never would have married him. And yet here we are. I find myself married to a man I deeply love, but now struggle to respect.
That’s a tough spot to be in. I used to look at him with admiration. Now, all too often I see him through glasses colored by sadness and pity, generally with a dose of resentment thrown in as well. When he would walk into a room pre-DDay, even when I was tired, or ticked, or hungry for that matter, I would smile and get a warm fuzzy feeling. Now, I often look away. There is still love there, but it has a lot of hurt and disgust piled on top of it.
And yet this result was very predictable. Nothing in my background would suggest to Handsome that I wouldn’t be violently disgusted by his behavior. His boss is (allegedly) a complete male whore and Handsome and I used to talk about his antics disparagingly all the time and discuss how sorry we felt for his wife. More than half of that time Handsome was doing the same or worse things. (Transference, perhaps?)
Handsome certainly knew that when I found out that he’d been going down on the town syphilitic whore, it would turn my stomach for him to do that to me. He had to realize that knowing that he came inside women who were basically smashed by a steady train of paying guys all day long, having him inside me would be a lot less meaningful or fun or intimate. He must have known that the knowledge that he trolled for anonymous pussy online – and that he’d essentially fuck anything – means that whatever he says to me about wanting me is kind of a moot point. Why wouldn’t he want me after what he’s been fucking?
Of all of the issues I’m covering this week, this may be the one that is most difficult to overcome. Handsome has to work – hard – to regain my esteem and respect. So far, a year in, his record is lackluster. Yes, he has made strides, but then he undoes everything with a giant helping of lies or trickle truth or gas lighting. That can’t continue forever.
I want desperately to rebuild trust and respect for him, but only Handsome controls whether or not that is possible. I want to look at him and be proud of all of the hard work that he is doing to heal himself and us. I have had that at fleeting times throughout the last year, and then it vanishes when he undermines and self-sabotages his own hard work. I’m willing to do everything I can to help him, but he also needs to help himself.
Tomorrow – A Week of Brutal Honesty – #5 – Handsome’s Clock is Ticking
Have you ever asked Handsome what he thought would have happened if you found out? I asked Mr. Perfect recently and he said my reaction and pain of him fucking other women any constantly lying is 1000% worse than he ever thought.
REALLY??! They sure were living in some sort of fantasy world.
Wow! Rog said same. He’d been cheated on. And told me how crazy it made him. I thought he’d get it. But there wasn’t 30 years, property, kids, etc.
I’ve asked and the maddening answer is “I never thought about it because I was sure you’d never find out.” In truth, had the Whore’s husband not found her burner phone I would probably still be in the dark. That would have continued to be the case unless we had another “tampon on the window ledge” incident or he did something else sloppy. Even then, I can’t rule out that I would have given him the benefit of the doubt again.
One thing that completely frosts me though is that I have the kind of job where if my husband got himself arrested and his face was all over the news, my employer would come to me and kindly but decidedly suggest that I immediately look for alternate employment. They have zero interest in scandal. So, if he got himself arrested in some escort ring or massage parlor sting, he would lose his job and I would lose mine. We would have been beyond screwed. Like lose the house screwed. I’ve asked him about that and he actually told me he couldn’t begin to ponder such things because it’s “too overwhelming.” He gives me the same answer about possibly infecting me with STDs or STIs.
They do truly live in denial and in a complete fantasy world with no basis in reality.
Mr. P’s initial answer was also “I never though you would find out.”
My response – “UHHHH what?? Questioning you about the dried jizz on your underwear, pointing out your crusty (discharge) finger, seeing you parked around the corner talking on the phone, getting an anonymous postcard in the mail, seeing some strange shoes in our house, questioning who these new male friends that I had never heard of and who you were that you were spending so much time with – and you never thought I would find out??”
They thought they were so damn smart.
Crazy-land.
That’s it in a nutshell. I think once Handsome had his burner phone and got away with a bunch of stuff, he started to feel invincible. I’m sure he thought he was slick.
This was definitely part of the high..doing what they did and then coming home with that secret.
So gross. As you said in this post, it’s so hard to look at him now. I miss the way I used to look at him.
Oh hell yeah! Was never gonna be caught. Never factored in the scorned woman. Or the fact that the pieces of the puzzle were there. We were just trying to put them together in the right configuration
Completely right. We were looking for something that made sense, when none of it actually makes sense or is logical.
Mine thought she’d never get caught either. I gave her hell over that in our last conversation about it.
“Let me get this straight. I’m suspicious of you, your family is suspicious of you, the whole town you work in is suspicious of you, his father outright accuses you two, and you think, ‘let’s have an affair, no one would find out’? Ridiculous. Then you double down and provide digital evidence, after I told you that images and messages never truly go away, they can be recalled at anytime. Fucking genius.”
It’s like talking to a child sometimes.
I second that feeling. My kids know to tell the truth and generally do, even when there might be negative consequences for them. My husband does not. My kids know that digital evidence doesn’t vanish. My husband was STUNNED that his stupid skanks kept their entire years-long text conversations with him not to mention the dick pics and videos. He’s so very lucky that he wasn’t blackmailed. STUPID.
Mr. P did get called out and threatened by 2 of them – they were friends and exchanged stories. So what did he do? Played the victim, begged, pleaded, hoped they would “disappear”…and then continued acting out for months with other women (and also probably them) until I read his emails. He even met with these 2 AFTER I read the emails begging them to keep quiet.
I seriously still can’t imagine him taking and sending a dick pic. I picture him standing in our room in front of our mirrored closet doors trying to get the biggest and best angle, deleting and re-taking…it’s just not who I thought he was.
BTW, I’ve never – ever – met a woman that actually likes dick pics, but I do know women share those pics when they get them…I’ve actually typed his name in the internet followed by “dick pic” because I’m sure one of these scorned skanks created a hate page just for him.
I am saddened to know that there are men out there who hate him and feel exactly the same way I feel about their wives. But he deserves it.
If someone had just told me about the pics and videos, I wouldn’t have believed it either. I never, ever thought he’d be so very f’ing stupid and shallow and vulgar and a bunch of other things. When the Whore’s husband posted one of Handsome’s masturbation videos online, I was mortified for me, but I pretty much figured that Handsome deserved it. I understood completely that he was mad and hurt and that my husband had it coming.
This is a. very tough issue and one that we have discussed in the support groups. I don’t feel the same way I felt about my husband. I have told him this and his reply is that he will win me back. I have told him that I’m open to the possibility that we can rebuild and have a deeper relationship than what we had, but I’ll never feel like I did before. I’ll never be that trusting again.
I have also struggled with the “loser” factor. If I had ever dated a man who told me he frequented prostitutes, even if he presented it as something in the past, I would have thanked him for sharing and never dated him again. I definitely would have considered him a loser. The only way I have been able to deal with the ick factor is to think about how truly sick my husband was. He had to be to take the chances he did and be involved with those types of people. Beyond that, I struggle.
Exactly. Every word. And for me, the ick factor is huge, but so is just knowing that I’ve lost that wholesome, untainted adoration for him that I had. It’s not that I thought he was perfect, for sure, but being imperfect is a far cry from intentionally betraying and hurting me. Just knowing that he did not protect me is like death by 1000 cuts.
I hope our husbands do manage to win us back, but what they are getting back is not what they lost in the first instance.
I have a visceral reaction to this post and the comments.
To be clear, not once did I think I was going to get away with it.
Not once…both of these women are super smart, intuitive women. I don’t love dumb women.
I knew eventually K would call my xp. I knew eventually it would come crashing down. I saw K 6 to 8 times over the two years and I kept trying to figure out how to make K think it was her decision to end it so she wouldn’t call my xp.
Throughout this experience, I just wanted to keep them apart. I told K what I thought she needed and wanted to hear to push her away and keep her from melting down all over my life. I was manipulative, controlling, secretive, and lying my ass off to K everyday. I was abusive and mean to K in order to drive her away.
I tried for two years to explain why I wasn’t fit for a relationship – I’m broken, incapable of love, fractured, depressed, suicidal, and whatever else I could come up trying to get her to stop caring for me. It all backfired because when she did call my xp she used that crap to “warn” my xp and tell her I was unsafe and dangerous.
Then after my xp kicked me out K asked me to come home because I was a good man.
The last year of my behavior before K called my xp, I never saw her. I’d make excuse after excuse not to see her, talk with her or spend time with her and then, when I realized what a dick I was being, I tried to make her feel better.
It was an ugly cycle.
I never believed I’d get away with it but I also didn’t believe I could ask for help from my xp because she doesn’t do weak men and that is precisely how she sees it IMO. “Loser” being her word, and the word of lots of people when they discuss infidelity. You’re a loser if you cheat. You’re a loser if you stay. Lots of shameful words tossed at human beings just trying to learn how to be more fucking human.
Never mind this entire scenario post-act was about maintaining my role as my xp’s hero and staying on the white horse…the white horse I felt trapped to remain on.
The Hero role isn’t my xp’s fault, or specifically mine. No one is at fault. It is an unskillful application of a pattern. It is a pattern I have witnessed my xp repeat over and over for the last 12 months. I didn’t even know it was a pattern until one of her new heroes wrote me.
In reality, it is a pattern we both choose to embrace. I can learn and apply new skills and create healthier patterns.
I swear, I think some people would prefer to have a hero and not a vulnerable real man. I just wrote about this in my post “Broken Promises.” Brene Brown talks about it extensively when she discusses men and shame. My behavior is a type of toxic masculinity. And I’ve talked about this before, the infidelity, hero playing, the patterns, the loser labels, the secrets and dishonesty are the way of the thing, they aren’t actually the thing.
Up to this point I have never participated in the behaviors discussed here: I never paid-to-play, there was no porn or hypersexuality, sex addictions, or high-risk behaviors (and I understand that is completely subjective labels and I mean them in a generous range) but here is the thing, I also know I told someone I would never ever cheat on C…but I did.
As my friend reminded me, but for the grace of god there go I. I have been reading another betrayed woman and she took to cutting after discovering her husband’s behaviors. Another went out, and after the divorce became an affair partner to a married man. And still another physically assaults her husband and over the years has repeatedly broken his ribs, nose and jaw…among other things.
The reality is we don’t know what we are capable of until we are in the arena.
A year out and K is humiliated about her behavior. She cannot believe she called my xp.
I guess one point is, not every man thinks he is going to get away with it and be able to keep it a secret. Not every man is trying to keep it a secret so they can get more pussy.
Perhaps for those men we should start being honest about the expectations we have about the role of the men and women in relationships. Women are allowed to be vulnerable, open, emotional, eat, pray, and love but men better stay on their white horses or be ostracized as a loser…
Here is the talk where she discusses men, expectations and shame:
https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame
There’s a lot to unpack here. You say “Women are allowed to be vulnerable, open, emotional, eat, pray, and love but men better stay on their white horses or be ostracized as a loser…” which certainly has some truth to it, but it is also true that women who express strength or take charge or control or otherwise assert themselves are often ostracized as bitches. It goes both ways.
Do I struggle with thinking of my husband as a loser because he fell of his white horse? Yes, I do. The point of the post wasn’t to label my husband, but rather to discuss my struggle with that particular admittedly ugly label in relation to Handsome. I was raised to believe that there are things you just don’t do. Breaking the law by frequenting paid sex workers is one of those things. So is trolling for anonymous sex online. In my mind, and I’m speaking frankly here, I think you’ve got to be a really broken person and have zero self esteem to do either of those things. So to that extent, yes, his repeated behavior over a period of years (not one or two isolated incidents) screams “loser” to me. However, I know now that “broken person with zero self esteem” pretty aptly describes my husband. Mind you, I would feel this way if he was someone else’s spouse or unmarried, for that matter. The fact that he’s my husband just makes it all the more difficult because I never, ever thought of him as anything less than awesome and wonderful.
Is it possible that after you saw K the first time that you actually did keep the secret so you could see her again? I’m just asking. I know there are some people who get caught up and then can’t figure out an exit strategy, but it seems that starts a bit further down the road. Regardless, I’m not sure how we distinguish between the men (or women) who keep it a secret so they can get more action, and those who don’t. I’m also not sure it matters to the betrayed. It’s a bit of a distinction without a difference. I get that the distinction is meaningful to the person being unfaithful, but I think it is much less important to the betrayed partner. The betrayal trauma doesn’t look any different, I don’t think, depending on the motivation behind the lies and secrets. (“I didn’t want to hurt you” or “I didn’t want to destroy what we had together” or “I never wanted you to know” is still leads to the same harm as “I lied to keep getting laid.”)
Also, for what it’s worth, to me “loser” is gender neutral. Being broken and having low self esteem is not solely the province of men. His acting out partners are all in that same boat with him in my book. I don’t see accepting money in exchange for sex as a feminist ideal, or having an affair with a married man as empowering. There is a lot of shame there too.
I really wish I could sit with you and talk over a cup of tea. Writing is such an accurately inaccurate for of communication. My writing voice sometimes come across more harsh than I intend. It can sound less compasionate than i intend.
Lots here. Let me come back to it.
Ok, I know this is going to sound really messed up, but….. yeah, I have thought of my husband as a loser for engaging in daily porn and masturbation. And yet, even though I am extremely grateful that his acting out does not include in person physical/sexual interactions with any one, that also at times has made me think of him as a loser. His insecurity was so deep, his self esteem so low, that he couldn’t even have sex with me or any other woman. All he had was fantasies, when he could have had me every day. Or the readily available others out there. It has been hard to respect him as a man, when his sexuality was at the same level as an awkward, immature adolescent. So, it’s kind of weird that I have thought of him as a loser for not engaging in riskier behaviours. I think maybe, it’s because his sex addiction has still caused us so much pain, but for what?
I completely understand this. It’s the same way I felt after finding out that Handsome had been ordering porn on our cable account for a year (the phase he and I call “Porngate”). It just struck me then that if a “man’s man” wants to be sexual, he does it with a real person. My husband, however, wasn’t functioning like a man (or any adult for that matter) but was instead deep in that awkward adolescent stage. That said, the feeling doesn’t go away even if you add the riskier behaviors to the mix. Knowing that my husband was exactly the kind of loser that pays for sex (when he could have had plenty at home) is beyond disappointing. The fact that he often paid a fortune, couldn’t perform, and walked off with little more than a blow job or a hand job makes it all the more frustrating. He caused an awful lot of pain for so very, very little in return. 🙁